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The symbiotic relationship between the football and basketball programs

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  • The symbiotic relationship between the football and basketball programs

    If you look at USC history, you'll see that its basketball program tends to do best when the football program is struggling.

    The Enfield Era, when the program has been the healthiest in its history, coincides with the Helton Era, when the football program has settled into a (possibly) permanent declined state.

    The fall just before USC went to the Elite 8 with Clancy and Scalabrine, the football team was 5-7 and fired Paul Hackett. The fall after it went to the Elite 8, it was 6-6 under Pete Carroll and lost the Vegas Bowl, while the basketball team the following spring was ranked for stretches of the season and won 22 games.

    In 1997, USC basketball went to the tournament and finished second in the league while USC football went 6-5 in football and fired John Robinson.

    In the fall of 1991, USC football had its worst season since 1957, going 3-8. That same academic year, the USC basketball team finished the regular season ranked 8th and had the SI National Player of the Year in Harold Miner. Arguably the best USC season between 1971 and 2021.

    In 1985, USC basketball won the Pac-10 conference regular season title in a spring season that was sandwiched between two USC football teams that went a combined 14-10 under the soon-to-be-fired Ted Tollner.

    In 1971, USC went 24-2 and was ranked as high as second in the polls. The previous fall, USC went 6-4-1 in football. The following fall? 6-4-1.

    The mid-1950s was considered a lackluster era for USC football (and a really good one for UCLA football). All USC basketball did was go to the Final Four in 1954, while the previous fall USC went 5-3-1 and got shut out by UCLA (the following fall, the Bruins won a share of their only national title in football).

    USC sent to its other national semifinal in 1940, as the Howard Jones Era limped to an end with a record of 3-4-1. The basketball coach Sam Barry took over the reigns of the football program the following fall and he went 2-6-1 (the worst season until the 1957 debacle).

    The last time USC football and USC basketball were good at the same time, both programs went on probation.

    So the point here is that football has tended to suck all the oxygen out of the USC's room. The psychic energy (if you believe in that sort of claptrap) of USC fandom and its avatar that is its administration is focused on football and thence here is rarely much left over for basketball. It is only when the big brother football program struggles that the little brother basketball program is allowed an opening to get some of the attention of mom and dad.

    Ideally, we'd like Mom and Dad to give attention to all its children. Could a conference title be what does it? It would be great if the administration capitalized on this season with a serious, committed drive to promote the program, its players, drive attendance and give the coaching staff more of what it needs to succeed at a high level.










  • #2
    I dont think the football is in a permanent decline (thank Swann and Lopes for that hefty contract), it will eventually come back up.

    What would be ideal if USC football and basketball were both fun to watch like Florida and Ohio State were at times. Imagine having your entertainment start from the first week of September and ending on the first week of April. That's a good 8 months of pure fun seeing SC kill it.

    Comment


    • MeltonNotHelton
      MeltonNotHelton commented
      Editing a comment
      It will remain in decline as long as we have one of the worst head coaches in college football. And based on USC's hiring track record, there's no reason to believe it will solve things when he's gone.

    • TroyWonder
      TroyWonder commented
      Editing a comment
      what helps is that we dont have a dumba$$ of an AD anymore. I really like Bohn, his new hires on the staff positions are really good, especially Donte. I think they will go after the good and up and coming head coaches in the future, hopefully by December 2021 if what my friend is saying is indeed correct.

      I'd like to think Bohn and Sosna have a plan in mind to keep the USC basketball program rolling. The basketball program might be the only thing taking some heat off of them on getting grilled online on twitter.

  • #3
    Football won't be dead. Stuff is brewing behind the scenes. Even though we have Mid Power assistant caliber coach, we've stumbled upon great assistants that are elite recruiters. We've already gotten back on track with '21 and a lot of big things are in the work for '22. The talent will never be the issue, just the coaching. With Helton staying for the next year and likely beyond, hopefully we'll be able to surround him with assistant coaches that can make up for his lack of coaching, and I'm not talking about just recruiting. As crazy as it sounds, there's a path, we just need more.

    Comment


    • #4
      Originally posted by NYtrojan View Post
      Football won't be dead. Stuff is brewing behind the scenes. Even though we have Mid Power assistant caliber coach, we've stumbled upon great assistants that are elite recruiters. We've already gotten back on track with '21 and a lot of big things are in the work for '22. The talent will never be the issue, just the coaching. With Helton staying for the next year and likely beyond, hopefully we'll be able to surround him with assistant coaches that can make up for his lack of coaching, and I'm not talking about just recruiting. As crazy as it sounds, there's a path, we just need more.
      Assistants and talent don’t matter if the head coach doesn’t know what he’s doing. We’ve seen this over and over.

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by MeltonNotHelton View Post

        Assistants and talent don’t matter if the head coach doesn’t know what he’s doing. We’ve seen this over and over.
        Good assistants and talent certainly do matter despite a head coach's shortcomings. There's definitely an equal amount of blame that goes to Graham Harrell as to Clay Helton. A good example would be Brian Kelly - really mediocre coach with great talent. Extremely comparable record to Helton and even went 4-8 one year. But, they were able to find good assistants to surround him with along with top recruiting finishes, and Notre Dame has become a force once again.

        To clarify, I am NOT defending Helton by any means. Hate the guy and I've wanted him out since day one. But, since he's here, there are solutions to him being here rather than continuing to fall into obscurity.

        Comment


        • #6
          We were 5-1 in football and came in second. The basketball team rarely has had that type of record in its entire history including Enfield. A record like that for basketball would be a success
          Last edited by TroyD; 02-24-2021, 08:18 AM.

          Comment


          • NYtrojan
            NYtrojan commented
            Editing a comment
            Easily could have been 6-0 had if we didn't have to play Oregon in a 6-day turnaround too. That was practically 3 games in 12 days as well, and with a lack of a true fall camp and a stoppage 5 weeks into the season, it was always a hard challenge to overcome. They also had a future top 5 pick that was hungry to go back home to prove he made the right decision. Admittedly, we had a cupcake schedule this year, but so did another team that made it to the playoffs

        • #7
          Originally posted by TroyD View Post
          We were 5-1 in football and came in second. The basketball team rarely has had that type of record in its entire history including Enfield. A record like that for basketball would be a success
          Yeah. That game got Drevno canned

          Comment


          • #8
            Originally posted by NYtrojan View Post

            Good assistants and talent certainly do matter despite a head coach's shortcomings. There's definitely an equal amount of blame that goes to Graham Harrell as to Clay Helton. A good example would be Brian Kelly - really mediocre coach with great talent. Extremely comparable record to Helton and even went 4-8 one year. But, they were able to find good assistants to surround him with along with top recruiting finishes, and Notre Dame has become a force once again.

            To clarify, I am NOT defending Helton by any means. Hate the guy and I've wanted him out since day one. But, since he's here, there are solutions to him being here rather than continuing to fall into obscurity.
            Brian Kelly is a far far better coach than Clay Helton. He’s made the playoffs multiple times. He was successful at a place (Cincinnati) that would never even consider hiring a guy like Helton because you need to be able to do more with less. You will not find a single coach at a major power that is as unfit for his position as Clay Helton. This idea that he’s going to be successful because we got a good DB coach is the triumph of hope over experience.

            Do you not remember the Hackett years? Or the Kiffin years? No reshuffling of coaching staffs can save a program if the head coach is awful.

            Comment


            • TroyWonder
              TroyWonder commented
              Editing a comment
              Heritage Hall is just playing the waiting game. Helton is going to get canned.

            • MeltonNotHelton
              MeltonNotHelton commented
              Editing a comment
              What waiting game? Waiting for what? Helton should have been fired a long time ago and should have never been hired.

              Who do you think HH is going to hire that is going to resurrect this program in decline?

            • TroyWonder
              TroyWonder commented
              Editing a comment
              for starters his buyout is massive and unlike the SEC/Big 12/Big Ten there aren't boosters that into football willing to pay his buyout. When the buyout drops sufficiently enough (~13 million right now), he will be canned.

              As for the 2nd question, I dont know. But based on the track record of the staff hires, I'd assume they would go for the prospective coaches on every football team needing a new coach wish list.

          • #9
            Originally posted by TroyD View Post
            We were 5-1 in football and came in second. The basketball team rarely has had that type of record in its entire history including Enfield. A record like that for basketball would be a success
            This year's football team was a mess. Coming in second for USC football when you have superior talent is not a success.

            Comment


            • #10
              Originally posted by MeltonNotHelton View Post

              Brian Kelly is a far far better coach than Clay Helton. He’s made the playoffs multiple times. He was successful at a place (Cincinnati) that would never even consider hiring a guy like Helton because you need to be able to do more with less. You will not find a single coach at a major power that is as unfit for his position as Clay Helton. This idea that he’s going to be successful because we got a good DB coach is the triumph of hope over experience.

              Do you not remember the Hackett years? Or the Kiffin years? No reshuffling of coaching staffs can save a program if the head coach is awful.
              He's better than Helton, but that's not saying anything at all. He's far from a coach that should be the standard at Notre Dame, especially in his first years. And he fixed his narrative through hiring the right assistants. As TroyWonder was saying, we're stuck with Helton until we can get that buyout amount to something lower, and I'm hearing that's gonna realistically take 2 years unless we completely collapse next year. Knowing this, we have to find other ways to improve, and that's through assistants. Many casuals think that all we have is a stark DB coach, but guys like Vic So'Oto and Keary Colbert have been putting in equally valid work behind the scenes. Now, there are areas we can certainly improve on, especially on the offensive side, but we are on a better path in that regard. Since Helton is completely useless, it's imperative to find people that can do the work for him, both on recruiting and play-calling.

              Comment


              • #11
                Originally posted by MeltonNotHelton View Post

                This year's football team was a mess. Coming in second for USC football when you have superior talent is not a success.
                I don't agree it was a mess. There are many teams that would kill to be in our position but I do understand the expectations for the football program is very high because of past success. If the basketball team came in second with one lost, most would not call the program a mess except for the usual suspects.

                Comment


                • #12
                  Originally posted by NYtrojan View Post

                  He's better than Helton, but that's not saying anything at all. He's far from a coach that should be the standard at Notre Dame, especially in his first years. And he fixed his narrative through hiring the right assistants. As TroyWonder was saying, we're stuck with Helton until we can get that buyout amount to something lower, and I'm hearing that's gonna realistically take 2 years unless we completely collapse next year. Knowing this, we have to find other ways to improve, and that's through assistants. Many casuals think that all we have is a stark DB coach, but guys like Vic So'Oto and Keary Colbert have been putting in equally valid work behind the scenes. Now, there are areas we can certainly improve on, especially on the offensive side, but we are on a better path in that regard. Since Helton is completely useless, it's imperative to find people that can do the work for him, both on recruiting and play-calling.
                  He’s among the most successful coaches in ND history. He’s basically had three legit shots at a National title in the last eight seasons. And he was highly successful at Cincinnati and Central Michigan before that. Meaning, he’s won at every level. We’ll have to agree to disagree.

                  As for your other point, can you give me just one example of a bad head coach succeeding thanks to good assistants? Just one! Paul Hackett had Ed Orgeron, Kennedy Pola, Bill Young and Dennis Thurman. We still were crap. It all starts at the top, and we have perhaps the worst head football coach at a major school in America.

                  Comment


                  • NYtrojan
                    NYtrojan commented
                    Editing a comment
                    That's the argument though - he's successful because of hiring very good assistants, which happened after the 4-8 year. Ask any former D1 football player and they'll tell you how integral good assistant coaches are to success, especially in their respective positions. Throughout the years watching him, I don't think he's a good coach. But, again, agree to disagree.

                    Honestly, I'm not going to be able to give you a head coach as bad as Helton. He's the worst by far. I will say that Oregon's recent success in the last two years is largely due to assistants. Sarkisian, if he's able to pull it out at Texas, would be another good example.

                • #13
                  Originally posted by MeltonNotHelton View Post

                  This year's football team was a mess. Coming in second for USC football when you have superior talent is not a success.
                  The whole “take back the west” mantra doesn’t really add up when you can’t win your conference

                  Comment

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